Interviewee Kotandinidis, Kostandinos Interviewer Molho, Renna Date interview: 2015 June 27 Language Greek Extent 1 digital file : MPEG-4. Credit Line United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Foundation: now it's quiet yes i can't hear it the other time wasn't it that this one you want me to take it out i think it's the one i know the one there i want to thank you that you agreed to meet us again and let me remind you that we had a conversation together about a month and a half ago and what we are going to say today will be about what we have said maybe in more detail tell me your name Kostas Kostantinidis where and when were you born in 1923 in Thessaloniki on the street Demirisar would you like to tell me about your father and mother what they were doing for your family my father was a teacher but he comes from Stromnitsa that today Stromnitsa is Skopje it was a large settlement of Greeks in Stromnitsa and when he reached the age of 17 18 years old he came to Thessaloniki he went to the academy he graduated and became a teacher he worked very hard as a Macedonian fighter he took orders from abroad and went from here to Alexandroupoli by foot and he went back either by foot or he had a steamer or something like that was your mother from here my mother is from Natalia of Asia Minor of Turkey it was a family with seven children my mother four girls and three boys and they came in 1920 they prevented the destruction and bought a house in Agia Triada here my uncle and my big brother worked in the fabrics first as workers and the third brother was an employee in the courts he did not get married did you have brothers I have two brothers one is a mechanic and the other is a mathematician where did you go to school I went to school in Agios Ioannis in the village seven kilometers away from Katerini where my father was a teacher but he never gave me 10 he was always up to 9 and when did you come to Thessaloniki I came to Thessaloniki in 1935 I came here in the sixth grade where did you go to school then I went to school in the sixth grade on the 25th of March in Pirkaia where the parliament is on the 25th of March just behind did you have Jewish classmates we had only two students do you remember their names after high school where did you continue school after high school our area existed in the first gymnasium of Arenos which I saw is in the station now Faliro then it was called Agia Triada station I went there I gave exams we entered the gymnasium I gave exams we were four students and the gymnasium teacher who came out said those who hear their names are rejected and I heard my name too, Konstantinidis Konstantinos from the first gymnasium now in Agia Triada to go to Sofouli to face my father teacher when I arrived from the gymnasium in Thaliro then it was Trump then I said to myself to stop I said to myself to be a 12 year old child to be another Konstantinidis I turned back I went to the teacher's office I said to the teacher a child then I said Konstantinidis Konstantinos and the teacher's office and the teacher's office and he yes and the teacher's office then I said to myself the teacher says to me the teacher says to me what is your mother's name Anastasia you passed when he said you passed my joy was such that I was jumping the stairs six by six not two by two six by six I did not take Trump to go to the house we went with our feet faster than Trump and you understand what joy then and so on and so on and so on so I went to the first gymnasium of Arenos in the first class then the class was from 50 to 65 children it is not like now 25 to 30 so in my first class we had 8 children 8 children 4-5 names now how did I say it? Gatenio Gatenio yes I don't remember anything else there were 8 children and they were the best students Mr. Konstantinidis you told me that you had 8 Jewish classmates in a class of 60 children and that the 8 were first students in all the classes were they first students? in general yes when we took the indicators it was 10 it was 9 10 9 8 7 and the Greeks started from 7 did the Jews help the other students? good children all good children really did they help you? yes yes in what? in French I knew better French? Gatenio knew very well very well French and all the children knew French but Gatenio spoke to him as they speak in Greek it seems at home he went to school where he learned French yes right tell me how the teachers behaved towards the Jews in the school? no difference no I can say that because they were good students they liked them more and that they had for example I don't have a bad memory between teachers and students of Jews did you have good friends of Jews? the best friend was a Christian or a Jew? the best friend then? to tell the truth I didn't have any friends why was that? because I was from the province of Elthon I wasn't in Katerini and when I came here I was from the municipality and after the first high school I had no friends from Thessaloniki generally from Thessaloniki either Jews or Greeks and in the family what did you hear about the Jews? we almost never spoke I remember well one of your aunts worked what was her name? Anna Konstantinidou worked in the municipal school of 151 what was 151? it was the poorest school of Jews in such a poor place that I can say that the rotten lemons were used for food did you see that? no did you go to the homestead of the Jews? no I didn't what did you do after high school? the first high school made a list so that it could accommodate so many students from Tumba, from Kalamarjia, from Depo, from Sofouli etc and the state then made the 5th Arenon High School and said that from here to here you will go to the 5th Arenon High School and we made transfers when we made transfers, instead of 8 Jewish children, only 4 came the other 4 stayed at the 1st Arenon High School and we went to the 5th Arenon High School which is opposite from Análipsi and opposite was from the school of Schina the school of Schina and the school of Valagianni were the two aristocratic private schools and we were supposed to go to school at the time that the girls were studying because it was Thileon yes, Thileon, only Thileon and you had friends there or you just wanted to see them, how was it? to see them, with a little bit of trickery, a little bit of such things 12-13 years old were these schools closer to your home? of course, Agia Triada with Análipsi is 4-5 stops by tram and where did you stay? at your home? there, Gavrilidou street, 110 Sofouli when you finished high school, what did you do? when I finished high school, in 1940, the war broke out the war broke out and the school, the school of the 5th high school, was taken by the army and we went to Marko Bocsaris, a municipal school and I finished there and I got the certificate of the 5th high school after that, the Germans entered on April 6, the Germans entered when? April 6, 1941 where did the war find you? the war? the Germans, how did you realize that the Germans entered? we finished in 1940, high school and in 1941, when the Germans came from the time we finished high school until the Germans came, I worked in the salt mill and we produced bread for the Greek army, for Albania but when the Germans came, things changed the Italians were defeated the Germans took over Greece and the Italians left did you see the Germans? who was your first reaction? I was shocked can you tell me more? the Germans, first of all the most amazing thing they did was, who finished the German school and which of the children they wanted to work with 3-4 children I knew, and one of them was a second or third brother what was his name? what was his name? Manolis I don't remember his name in a little while and our school in the 5th grade was taken by the Germans I forgot to tell you let's go where you say that the Germans were defeated by the students of the German school who wanted to work with them and one of your acquaintances, Manolis approached him yes, he accepted he accepted to work with them another one, Tsofas, I don't remember his last name he had a pharmacy in Depo his mother was German and he cooperated but he cooperated fairly what was the fairness? they put him in front of the houses that were leaving for Auschwitz and those houses took the keys inside, since he told me I wanted something from the books, the vocabulary but this happened later until the Jews left yes in 1943 before that, I want to know what you told me that you were eaten by the Germans, in what circumstances? this happened the girls were playing on the stage and we were teasing them and at that time three Germans were passing and the girls were yelling at us and a German came and said why are you teasing the girls? she was the only one and since then, I didn't get along with the Germans what happened next? in Thessaloniki, after the Germans entered? after the Germans entered they took first of all the honey you were working I had stopped I forgot to tell you that when they took us away from where we were eating I went, since it was near Sofouli I took 4-5 sacks of galeta half a room and we ate from there we went to Katerini in the same village where the teacher was and you stayed here alone? I stayed alone and went to my aunt who was the teacher in 151 the aunt was following and working in the school in 151 when the Germans entered? as long as the Germans closed the school when did they close the school? the school should have closed in 1963 no, probably in 1943 in 1943 since April 1941 until 1943 what experiences did you have with the Germans? apart from the fact that they had I didn't have any experiences with the Germans but I had experiences with the Communists that is when I went to university the left blocked me to become a member of the EAM not KKK but EAM and I was excited about the country and I said ok and I made two meetings in the EISU in the university, outside, in the halls I went the Christmas of that year with my feet from here to Katerini with my feet in one and a half day and my father said to me are you an academic at all? I said yes, I am with the EAM you will go and you will be registered you will not be with anyone you will not be with anyone and I know details when you will come back you will find an excuse that we have the afternoon to share food and you will find an excuse when do these things happen? what Christmas? now either 1942 or 1943 I cannot remember exactly but the Jews are still in the city the Jews are still in the city and in fact my uncle who opened the Select they had a house in Agia Triada behind the church the area of Agia Triada and Evzon was 50% Jews residents of the settlement of Evzon and Agia Triada there were many Jewish houses were you born in Jewish houses? me? for a while yes for a while yes because I had no books and I went to the street not Evzon or Aliodos Aitorachis? no yes, I went and the children helped me who lived in Aliodos? in which house? in Aristuchus in Gatenio it was very good apart from Aristuchus he knew languages but I don't know he liked me I was one of the poor children he was a good student I went one or two years I went to his house not Evzon but the other street how do you say it? we will remember it in the course and here Evzon you must know it the other street where Ignatia comes out she starts from the kingdom of Sophia and Ignatia comes out ready we were there I think I had asked you when did things start to change for the Jews we had a technical problem and we stopped that's why we continue I want to remember in which classes I went to Gatenio's house it must have been in 1941-1942 1941-1942 when we were talking in 1942 he says to me they started the massacre against the Jews he says to me and I didn't pay so much attention to stop this and say that when I went to Katerina I told you that my father told me you won't make it I came here and the appointments they gave me I didn't go and I became their enemy and in another national organization so that they are right I didn't sign up at all that's what I told you the other day when the war ended here I held the EAM for four months among the nationalists there was a child from here they took me in a room of 27 people in Kalamaria my father and mother in the village they had no idea my aunt she came and told me to cook I didn't know what to eat the third day let's say a prison a group of anti-Jews came and the door opened and what to see the leader of this group my classmate from the university and as soon as I saw him I didn't greet him and after two hours a soldier of the EAM comes and tells me that I am free let's go back to 1942 when your classmate was dying what did he have in his mind that you didn't understand I can't imagine he had in his mind he thought that they will be punished that they will be released that they won't go there that they won't dance there when did you realize the first discrimination and barbaric behavior when did you realize well done my uncle George who was in Agia Triada with many Jewish friends in the neighborhood one day a lady came and said Mr. George we don't get along with the Germans do you want me to bring you something and if I return it give it to me my uncle says I don't want anything if you want something for memory and they gave them a wall clock when did this happen in 1942 what had happened in 1942 and when in autumn in the previous meeting you told us that you found yourselves in the square of freedom now you want to know when the lady who gave the wall clock said that they will gather the Jews etc and that's why we want to give the Greeks whatever we have there were few who had money they left money and suddenly we saw rich Greeks and the people didn't come back they didn't say anything and we heard when they were in the square of freedom when was it in 1942-43 what time was it it must have been in autumn were you there I was there why I was there because there was Katany who told you that something was happening in the square of freedom from mouth to mouth these new things were coming and you went there I went to the square of freedom I don't remember if it was mixed it was full of men and I got into the men after I found out that their guarding was not very strict in the whole square of freedom if there were 500 Jews it was a question of if there were 4 guards I don't know how did you see it was it half full or full the square was I can't say how much it was a lot it must have been it must have been from 50 to 1000 people I searched and I found him and no one stopped you no one I didn't have that they all had glasses all the Jews had glasses all the Jews it showed that you were a Jew was there a star I don't remember but I remember it was colored and I went and found him I told him to come with me to sleep in my house and tomorrow morning I will take you to the village and he said my parents have the same fate I can't leave them he didn't come back I have a lot of questions first of all what did you do in the village what did you have in the village the EAM you had a connection with the EAM did you think that the EAM would help him of course what did the EAM say did the EAM ask for members did the EAM ask for members did the EAM ask for members no did the EAM ask for members no I didn't see what did the EAM say the EAM was against the Germans do you remember any of the things that the EAM said they said do whatever you can against the Germans do whatever you can against the Germans if you can did the EAM ask for members did the EAM ask for members did the EAM ask for members did the EAM ask for members in the square of freedom what did the Jews do nothing they were waiting to leave for the station how long did you stay there I asked the man if there was another student he said no and I left how long did you stay how long did you stay it must have been 11 or 12 somewhere there somewhere there what did the Jews do in the square what did the Jews do in the beginning it was 100-200 then 300, then 400 then 500 it wasn't a group of 1000 they took 200 from Agia Triada they took 200 from Elzono they took 400 from 151 they took 400 from 151 they took them there what did the people say they were sad they were sad did they say anything if they said if they said if they talked to the Jews if they talked to the Jews if they talked to the Jews if they talked to the Jews before the Germans took them in their houses when they were still in their houses they had contact with the neighborhood did you understand when you went to look for your friend in the square I don't know anyone I didn't see anyone were there people watching around did they say anything they were afraid they didn't say anything they said they were afraid what else did you see in the square did you see how did you know that they went there by train when the number was added when the number was added the first group was led the first group was led to the station then the first group then the second group then the third group how did you know that they went to the station from Kosovo did you see them did you see them I didn't when you left I stayed in the square you didn't see them how I saw the first group 100% until the twelfth until the twelfth who were the Jews following only four of them and the others who stayed in the square were they being guarded probably probably I don't know one of them the traitors that's how I knew because the road was leading them how could they go there and when you returned to your neighborhood what did you hear about the expulsion that they went to the station my neighborhood didn't have a single Jew not a single Jew because it was a refugee settlement imagine all of Kalamaria didn't have a single Jew all of Sofouli didn't have a single Jew the Jews started here in Thessaloniki and here the place where you lost your mind was the rich Jews that were in the kingdom of Olga until the Eczanon Viles as it is now that belongs to the municipality it was like that with big yards it was crazy what beautiful gardens did they take them or did they take them from the Viles from the Viles I didn't see it did your aunt teach you in 151 no, the Germans took them when did they take them the Germans took them they took them they took them no they didn't take them the schools didn't take them they took them but my aunt worked there until the school closed when did the school close I don't know I imagine the school closed when there were no students do you remember when there were no students they took them did your aunt say anything she didn't say anything I can't remember did you go to the university at that time yes the university didn't work for a year what year was that 1941 and the beginning of the German occupation in 1941 and then it worked normally and without exams the first year without exams the child was lucky without exams I went to the university only to eat explain that's why those who went to the Japanese school the ministry made an order Greece but the Germans those who are students at the University of Thessaloniki Athens didn't have the opportunity to come to pass in 1972-73 the management of the Germans we went from there and I told them I want Katerina and they sent me to Katerina when we say they sent me where did they send me to the machines that took out the cinder then there was an order 50% will be taken by Georgos 25% will be taken by the municipality and 25% by the Germans the Germans the Germans assigned us to help the Germans to get 25% for the Germans we now gave 25% to the Germans we kept 2-3 barrels and they left for Katerina for black market did you go to the University and study Japanese did you have in the Japanese or in other schools Jewish friends and classmates no no when did you realize that Thessaloniki had no Jews if I had asked my classmate his mother was German and he had the keys from the houses if I remember well until until 1944 tell me what happened who gave you the keys he cooperated with the Germans he cooperated but he didn't say shoot him did you understand he told me you don't need the book in fact literally where did you get them from a rich house where the people lived he had everything when we opened the shop on October 20 1944 we opened the shop what did we see inside everything from a rich house there were some amazing shops beds you didn't tell us anything about this shop tell me from the beginning about which shop what was this shop for you when they decided to open the shop Murzopoulos who went to Athens and opened a shop there in Athens and left it I found it in his manager and my uncle with Charolampidi they had 40% and 20% they gave to Kiritaki the employee of Murzopoulos and he opened the shop after the war the Germans were leaving and we opened it what were you in this shop Mr. Karageorgiou and my mother were sisters uncle I asked him how much do you get in the university and he said 800 drachmas and my uncle said I will give you 2000 drachmas and the pain never went away how did the pricks get to this shop why was it closed this shop was around 400 meters big shop it had a step and a floor it seems that they could not give it anywhere else and he says let's have this store and we take it from here and the kid from here as soon as he opened the shop I took the best saw I took a nice wooden bed that I had not seen in my dream because it was connected what else did I take I took 5-6 and I took them to my house who collected all these things in this shop how did they get there the Germans for what purpose for storage when they needed a soup they would go and take this store was closed it was closed and we threw it away tell me did you see people taking things from Jewish houses and shops from shops I saw at what opportunity when we opened the Select we threw it away I took a walk in Venizelos how many shops were Jewish and the Jews people abandoned them as they were with their own shops and the question was did you see people going and taking things from Jewish shops and houses it was logical when I went there I said give me this shop how do you say it Saporta take Saporta's shop this is a logical question did you see Christians going and taking things from Jewish shops no after the war did you see Christians going and taking things from Jewish shops no I don't remember did you know Jews who came back after the war and took their homes did your friend came back my uncle had many relations with the Jews they were in Agia Triada we talked if their friends came back many of their friends didn't come back in Agia Triada when did they come back when 35 years ago after the war after the war we had 5 or 6 Jews after the war but after the war before the war no I don't remember is there anything you want to add to what you told us in relation to the occupation and the Jews I can't remember something that impressed you the only thing that impressed me is that in those villas that we talked about there was a beautiful girl 16 years old and I was 19 years old and we had a relationship and we fell in love and I lost her before and after she didn't come back what was her name I don't remember no I want to ask you something that you remember when you said that you opened the Select store that was a German store were there others like you that took the 6 machines that took things yes did someone take them I will tell you like I took a bed an amazing soup and machines my uncle Giorgos took them and I took them to my house in Sofouli if there were others they went to the Select store and took things my uncle said to the neighbour this and this this reached the ears of EAM the management of EAM they took the building and the EAM took it and the permission came what did they do did they take it I don't know what happened to the things that I took I have seen them they took me and put me in the room where there were 27 people and they asked me where did you find them I told them I don't know when my friend came and I told him they took them from the house I felt sorry for the body and the bed and the machines that's how I lost them from what I understand after the liberation you worked at the Select not immediately after the liberation after the liberation for 4 months we had EAM after after EAM when we had EAM and the store had a regular customer did they have Jewish customers those who returned those who returned and they were very few the women were very few they had no women no no my father had many he was older my father he was 9 years old we will stop for a while I will ask my colleagues 3 2 1 ready ready ready you told me that you fell in love with a girl did you remember how they called her Perahia did you meet her when you saw the girls from Valagiani and from Schina it must have been from Schina tell me more about this story about this girl what I know is that her father was a banker he was a rich boy he traveled in this age he knew all of Europe he had property outside the house he had other properties I mean if they lived here if they lived here I would be the rich man did she fall in love with you of course of course I was beautiful what did the girls say your eyes that's where the girls started don't look at me if the war didn't happen would you marry her I didn't want to did her parents agree with you they didn't agree unless they had in their mind to marry a Jew were there unmarried women in Thessaloniki rarely if some Jewish boys escaped were there other students I don't remember in the house did you go yes tell us how was the house Mrs. Perachia approached me politely without thinking that I was going to marry her how old were you I was 19 she was 16 how was the house my first love it wasn't only about money how was the house this house a small office of today's guardian from the municipality the museum of modern art in March yes how was it in the house I am sorry I was sad when I saw it I saw the difference between a poor man and a rich man what a living room what can I say today the living room the house apart from the living room I didn't see a room the bed and the pillows they had pillows how were the women the mother and the daughter after I met him the mother came to the store afterwards I forgot to tell you the woman didn't come back the mother came back the mother came back Mrs. Perachia came to Thessaloniki and then she left do you remember why the first owner left Mourzopoulos why did he leave Thessaloniki first of all he wanted to go to the capital because such a store in Thessaloniki didn't exist in Athens he went to Ermou street and opened a store that didn't have such a store it didn't only have women it had a lot of bags it had a lot of shoes it had shoes in Athens in Ermou I went to that store it had a lot of accessories except for clothes and fabrics his son couldn't continue his son however it seems to me that the Germans collect various items from the stores and houses of the Jews and they leave them there in the select and they didn't take them with them maybe Mourzopoulos was a partner of the Germans that's why I ask you when did Mourzopoulos leave Mourzopoulos left during the occupation in 1941 or 1943 in 1942 he left and he left it to Mr. Taki and one last detail except if you have to complete you said about the Jews that they came and went to the square of freedom in groups of 50 or 100 and they wore an apron were they accompanied by someone from whom? from a German from one German or more? depending on the group if it was 50 there were 2 if it was 100 there were 4 and they were not Germans they were not bad Germans they were Austrian from Hungary how do you know that? how do you know that? my cousin told me I had a cousin from Katynio? I forgot to tell you my cousin was killed by a soldier he was killed during the war? no during the war apparently he was a black cloth in the square of freedom how old were the Jews that gathered there? most of them were more than 40 more than 40 except if they had children with them like Katynio was with his father how old was Katynio when he was there? he was 19 years old like me how do you know that? where do you want us to write it? I can't remember I told you that we paid 25 gold liras for a house for the EAM your cousin who was executed during the occupation why did the EAM execute him? he was a partner of the Germans what was the accusation? he would have surrendered who knows my father gave me the order not to surrender because they went to my father in the village and they told him that on the 25th of March you will go to the church and you will talk about the EAM if I get a letter from my censor I will talk but with your order my children can't come in the next village Mr. Papadopoulos talked about the EAM they arrested him and took him to the police three girls went his son became a professor did you hear that? no I heard it from his sister where did your aunt live in Thessaloniki where I was born Demirisar we didn't go to the hospital to remember we went to Tumba back from Papafy there is a settlement you didn't stay in the area of the Jews not at all thank you Mr. Konstantinidis you are welcome I was moved because I learned more than I knew I wanted to ask something you said that you saw those who gathered in the freedom square lead them to the station and then you left did these people have the same clothes that you had in Perivrachioni did they have a star in Perivrachioni not in the clothes no that's what I wanted yes did you see Jews with the yellow star I don't remember if I knew that I would have this conversation I would have written a book how often did you go to the center in the area of the Jews in the area of the Jews from time to time to my grandmother to Mr. Giorgos house there was your grandmother what was her name Kara Georgiou and Natalia but you went to the university yes and when you went there you passed through the Jews I didn't pass because the De Mirisar road is behind this hospital from there to the university I went as it is now it was the Jewish cemetery did you see anything in the Jewish cemetery all marble graves you didn't see anything else no because from there to there until when did you go to the university until what time did you go 46 so you went every year in 46, 45, 44 but when the Germans left my first cousin again from brothers with Mr. Kara Georgiou we slept in the shop because of thieves and thieves we slept in the shop I woke up in the morning at 5 or 6 am and I read the lessons to give exams and 45, 46 and a little 47 I didn't go to my house I slept in the shop from the shop I went to the university I thought you went to the university without exams yes 41-42 school period so you read for exams for the exams of the year you have to go to the university without exams the other year I was a very good student I passed the first class with the first all the lessons the next year I became a doctor I wanted to become a doctor I wanted to become a doctor I wanted to become a doctor thank you you are welcome |