| Interviewee Sarafi, Asimina Interviewer Nomikou, Anna Date interview: 2016 April 16 Geography creation: Athens (Greece) Language Greek Extent 1 digital file : MPEG-4. Credit Line United States Holocaust Memorial Museum Collection, courtesy of the Jeff and Toby Herr Foundation: Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. Beep. January 1933. As you may remember, we came here again about two months ago. Yes. We had a conversation. Of course. And I have here with me the notes from our previous conversation, so that we can remember something. To add them, to add them. Very good. Tell me a little bit about your family. How many were you? Well, my father, my mother, my older brother, from whom I have a distance of 13 years, my middle-aged son, who was already dead, I had a distance of 8 years. And me, the last one. These were the members of the family that we lived then. You lived with them in the house? Yes. How did your brothers call you? The eldest, Michalis, the middle-aged, Dimitris, and me, Asimina, and they called me Mina from the time they married me. Asimina was too far away to call me. That's it. And your parents, what did they call them? My father, Gianni, that is, Ioannis, and my mother, Fanny. What did your father do? He was a carpenter. My mother, of course, no one was a worker. At least in my mother's class. Oh, the families that were settled, let's say, in the class, they were ashamed to work. They were ashamed to study, because they thought that studying was a torture for the woman. And therefore, the girls of the good families had to learn only a little French, a piano, a lot, a lot. That was the custom back then. And where did you stay? Where did you stay? In which area? My house is near the square. That is, it is the central square of the city. It has a very nice architecture. The Tricolors had a happy combination. A mayor who had been elected, when the roads were still muddy, who had traveled to Germany, had seen the city, how it was built, and wanted to take advantage of the river that passed in the middle of the city. And he made the square close. After the roads in Stavros, the big roads, the only road that started from the square was Kondili. My house was the corner on the third square from the square. But imagine, each square contained three buildings. That's how close we were to the square. Of course, for me, that was a great misfortune, because it was not the neighborhood where I could play. I had to go back and forth between the streets, and I had to go back and forth. Back there was the Jewish community, and that's why my first friends were all Jewish. I lost them, of course. So you had Jewish neighbors. Yes, alone. There were no others. The squares I just described contained shops. It was the center of the city. The first house with a family was mine. All the others were small shops, but in bad condition, old, from the Turks. There was no family nearby. Were these shops owned by Jews? Not all of them. But there were many Jews. I remember all of them. Opposite us, there was a real estate agent. All of them were artists. Next to the real estate agent was a real estate agent. That's what we called him back then. He used to store things. He didn't care about the milk that was brought home in the morning. That's what happened back then. The milk was made there. There were houses where the servant would go and get water from a well or a well, The water was not deep, it was on a small surface, it was not very deep inside. Later they took out the walls, with 100 meters, 75 meters deep, and we had very good water. But then there was a flood, and Zaharoula left the house with the two beds, and we had plenty of water in the house. That's how it was for the whole area. The two shops you told me about, do you remember their names? Yes, the first one was Atan, the opposite, and the other one was Atun. Did you go to these shops? Yes, we went to Atun and Zaharoula. Did you know them? Very well, and we were very sad. Atun was alone, I don't remember if he had a husband or children. Atan had a family, he had a godfather, Makis Kapeta, who was a student of my husband. He was there until the first high school grades, but he was an old man there. He also learned art, he could go to school, but he also learned art. In these shops below, there were all, two or three I remember, they were Jews, but they were not artisans, as I told you, one was a carpenter, the other a carpenter. I don't know what a carpenter is called nowadays, because this profession developed completely. Now it is workshops that make carpets, I don't know what they do, who will do it? And those who were involved with the fabric, the fabric dealers, did you know them? Do you remember their names? Of course, Levis, Moses, they were very famous families. Did you know them personally? Yes, personally, the Negrin family, I think I mentioned it in the first episode, because in the meantime I remembered everything else I am telling you now. With the Negrin family, we had a very strong connection, because the mother of the children was a seamstress, and when she came home, that's what happened. She sewed the clothes for my mother, maybe for me too, I don't remember if they tested me, but I'm sure that's how it was done, there weren't ready-made clothes at that time. The father and the boys had a hat, a hat, very nice. Do you remember telling me their names? I don't remember, I don't remember at all, I only remember his name, because it was written in the store, but it was Negrin, that's how they were called, I know now how it was. My mother would know, but where would she be now, if she was alive, she would be 120 years old, when I arrived. And apart from the professional relationship, that is, when Mrs. Negrin came and made the clothes, did you have friendly relations with your mother? Very much, very much. What did they do together, what do you remember? They would come to our house for the holidays, that was the custom, let's say. And we, on the other hand, they always brought us cooked eggs, what a nice custom they had, the eggs, they sent them, at that time there were no electric kitchens in the house, but in the ovens they cooked, but the main dishes, the main dishes, I don't know, we cooked in the oven, they would bring the eggs to the oven, in a small pan, that is, they would cook the eggs, very tasty, what can I tell you, when they brought us, we had holidays at home. Do you remember other customs? That's a lot, I don't remember other, but I don't remember other customs, I was a child and I wasn't very big, the only thing that bothered me was that we could play a little. In that little room that I told you was the synagogue, it was a shelter, people didn't pass, only those who were sitting around the house. There was Cohen, Campbell's, families, that is, many, many, with boys, girls, Campbell's had a grocery store, but on the square, as the square is, the street passes around, on one side was Campbell's, he had many, three, four boys, and one went to the river to swim and drowned. Oh, what a thrill he was, the whole city was thrilled at that time. That bothered me, I was too young to say it, but when I was there, I remember, I had a sister, Rosa, who was a classmate of my brother and got married in Volos. We lost her later, I don't know, I learned that she had two sons, they became doctors and went to America. That's what I remember. So you gathered in the synagogue outside and played? Yes, we played. For example, with the children? No, with the boys, the girls, they made arrangements, they went, I don't know where, but what could I do, how to say that. Who were your good friends there, playing with you? Lisa Levy, who we took, and she never came back to Trikala, because she got married to a Jew, of course he was Belgian, I don't know. But she got married there, from her sisters who lived there, because they escaped. They had gone to the mountains, to the villages, the two girls, from them I learned the news of Louise, and once she came to Greece, but I was already in Athens and I didn't know, I had lost contact. And she came back to Trikala, and I wanted to see her again. When I learned, I was very sad, I didn't see her again. Gabi, Iosif, she never came back, she's gone. So these were the closest friends? Yes, the closest, in my case, there were four classes, and Gabi two, Louisa four, and Gabi two. But they played with me, they played with me, they accepted me, because the older ones would accept the younger ones. Rarely. And you went to their houses? Of course, and I ate at their house, I was jealous, because they had many sisters, I didn't have any. And how do you remember their houses? Were they different from yours? I don't know, they were more homely, it seems to me. We had, yes, maybe our houses were freer, but they had small houses, they didn't have big ones. How did they find these? These must have been Turkish houses. Who did the research in those years? And who knew that they would be very valuable for the other generations today? This knowledge. Do you remember any close friends of your mother, who made a lot of friends together? Many friends, there was Gabi's mother, who was somewhat similar to my mother. The other one, Levy, had all her older sisters, and her older mother, maybe, I don't know what I remember in her house, she was very... She had a son, the first of her children, who had studied pre-war at the National Academy of Science and Technology, and he was the first political engineer who came to Trikala. His appointment was historical, and he became a law engineer, as it is today in every province. He was the first, but he died there. Do you remember her name, her mother's name, Gabi, that you told me about? I don't remember her name at all. She had an older sister, Mirei. Yes, they called her Mirei, I remember that. Luisa's sisters, one of them was Keti, and they called her the other one, how did they call her, the one who was very beautiful. I don't remember her name. It's been a long time since I remember her name. And why should I keep them? Do you remember other Jewish shops around there? I remember all of their families, I told you that they belonged to Moses, it was a big shop. We had one in Mordochai, the big one belonged to Moses, I think I told you about it in the previous episode. Did he die? Yes, you told me about Solomon. Solomon, Solomon, Solomon. What shop did Moses have? Again, again, the fabric shops, they were all like that. Some of them were heavy, with carpets inside, and others for women. Did you have a shop next to your house? Yes, just like the corner of the house, my father had a shop right next to it. It was called the Will, and it had inside... Put it here, sorry, like this. It seems that this is where the house ends, and it was quite big, it had a lot of depth, and it had ropes, I remember, lace, I remember, very nice things. Very nice. This one was stolen, wasn't it? The Germans robbed it, they knew it was Jewish inside. They didn't even take it, this one next to it is a shed, guys. Do you know what a shed is? You don't know. This shed was a hall, this word still exists, a hall somewhere. It was a tavern, with a long table, with some chairs for seats, and the shopkeeper had a kitchen. He made food, food, of the 19th century, let's say, beans, things like that. And in the back, from the front, it was a big yard, with a kitchen downstairs, where the peasants who came from the outskirts, because they sold wood, mostly wood, or their products, beans, potatoes, whatever the area produced, they brought them, and stored them there. They put the animals inside, and they sold whatever they brought. And they ate everything at noon. That was it, we had four or five sheds around. Because from the end of the Kondili Street, roads began to appear, that led to some villages of the area. Now, it may have been five kilometers, I don't know, three kilometers, but the rice that we call it, that is, the transport for the hills, from where they cut wood, and they brought and sold, that was the only income. There was nothing else for the schoolchildren, and the area was very poor. Of course, all this today is a treasure, because they cultivate them, and they sell all the products, the population multiplied, and many things happened. But back then, even the pots that we had, they were a little stale in the houses. So you were telling me that, while only the warehouse was bombed, your father was also there? Yes, only the warehouse, that's how our yard collapsed, in a way, because it fell on that side. And how did you tell me that you called it? The Will, the Will. The name. It's a small name. That's how I know them all, that's how I remember them at least. Now, my own, they may have called them by their names, but what can I remember from them? I don't remember anything. Did they have a family, the Will? The Will had a daughter, who lived, survived, married. Were they your friends? No, much older than me. Oh, oh. Matoula. They called her Matoula. Now, how did they call her? How did they baptize her? Write? How can I say? She had two children, and when they grew up and finished their school, they came and settled in Athens to study. Because my husband and I came later to Athens and we opened shops here, and she was sitting in the kitchen and she was passing by. I saw her. Yes? That's how I learned that she studied her children and they were well-educated, let's say. There was no culture that didn't educate them, but anyway, I think that's enough. Let me ask you, your father had Jewish customers, do you remember? No, no. He had... At that time, the cases were some animal thieves, some claims that that land was mine and not yours, those were the claims, let's say. Very much. Did your siblings hang out with Jews in the neighborhood? All of them, all of them. Do you remember any of their friends who came to your house? Liacus was my older brother's friend. His name was Kapetas, I think. He had a sister named Allegra, up to that point. I don't remember her name. I remember their house, where it was, I don't remember the composition. At the synagogue that you told me about, where you were gathered, did you ever manage to get in? How? How was it? How did you get in? Was there anything going on? No, it wasn't open. No. Some were celebrating, some had... I don't know what they were celebrating, but I was free with my friends. I remember, what was in the front, in the back, let's say, was the sacred, how should I call it, and the hall... was empty, I don't remember. I don't remember anything else inside. But it was the second time, when we were playing, because the big one had already been built, as I told you, on Odoviakou Street. If you go to Trikara, you can find it even now. Because those who were playing, the German ones, they turned to Trikara, and in front of the synagogue, because, I'm telling you, it was a street for shops, it wasn't for houses. They built shops, and I remember, let's say, it was a way of income for the families, because they were completely destroyed. And inside the houses, they had put pyropathies from all over the area, because they had burned the villages. In the last quarter of the Germans, of the German occupation, they had surrounded the villages, because they had burned them, so that they wouldn't get inside, and be fed. Greece, in our area, up there, Eves, a little further up in Ioannina, they burned everything. And the people were left on the streets, they had nothing. It was a source of income, and I think they built the whole street in front of it. But the synagogue, they couldn't... Let me ask you, other than your area, which was so close to the Jewish community, were there any other Jews in Trikala? No, no, they were all concentrated on us. All of them, all of them, I'm telling you. I can draw you exactly what the area was like, because it had another streetlight, but the boys went there and played. So, here in Kondili, there was the synagogue, and all around there were Jewish houses, and the square ended in the corner, where Louisa and her family sat. So, right across from here, there was the oven, a house, no, not a house, a cafe, I don't remember the name of the cafe, but it wasn't Jewish. And a small house, which had a door below, a shop, and above it, a room. As soon as they finished here, there was another streetlight, a small streetlight, not stairs, just like today's ramps. And here in the middle, there were Jewish houses, small houses, two or three, and ten steps in the middle, they entered a large square. The boys played there, and all around there were Jewish houses. All of this square. With all of this out in the middle, they had shelter, they could play comfortably, nothing was going on, only people were sitting around. The boys had it, but they had understood it, they couldn't play outside. That's how I remember it, there was nowhere else. Nowhere, nowhere, nowhere, not even one. And right next to your house, who lived next to yours? Do you remember your neighbors? I don't remember the two houses, I don't remember them. We didn't have any. I mean, I didn't have anything, because it was in this one, it was a shop downstairs, it was the door, and you went up. I think two elderly people lived there. In the single-family home, I remember, but I don't remember that they had a boy, the boy would be 90 years old now, and a girl, she was very beautiful, only she was very ugly, and she was saved, she got married in Larissa. But I don't remember the name. Were there Jews next to you? All of them, all of them. And on the other side, were there houses, roads? There was a cafe, and this little house with a room upstairs. But who lived there? I didn't know, I wasn't interested, but neither in the house, where Tade lives, or does anything. So what you saw opposite you was the oven? Yes. But it was, as I told you, this little oven were the houses. The first one was Gani's, Marcos Gani's. I was with two children, I told you that they brought their bags, I told you the other thing, that the poor people were leaving and hiding in the villages. And then, I don't know why, they brought bags to us, I don't know if they went, but with Gani's family we had a connection. And that's why they brought us a bag full of their own things, let's say, which they had more favorite. The girl escaped and came and took it. Tell me, what connection did you have with this family? I don't know, I don't know, but we had, they brought their things to say that we had a connection, right? And they had trust in us, but we were also in danger. Because at that time, the Germans took our heads, if you had like that, even photos with English, I mean with Jews. It was, as I remember, a great terror, especially for us. Do you remember the names of the family, Gani? No, I don't remember anyone else, except my father. Nothing else. The son is gone, the mother, the father, only the daughter is left. Where did you go to school, Mrs. Mina? Where did you go to school? Where was your school? Where was it? My first elementary school was two years in the third elementary school and two years in the fourth elementary school. The first was towards the area where the refugees were. Vinzel had built houses for the refugees. It was the third, the very new school. And after the third and the fourth, I went to the fourth elementary school, which was in the area of St. Episcopal, opposite the church of St. Episcopal. It was in Diakou, Terma, it was much closer to the fourth. In the beginning, it was written in the third, because the teacher was a relative of my mother and she wanted to go to Sofia, to Mrs. Sofia, but it was far from there. I couldn't go there, so I went to the fourth, which was closer. Did you have any Jewish classmates? No, I didn't. I mentioned this in our first meeting, that I don't remember my classmates. But, when I talked with a lot of people, younger than me, Maria Theodosiadou, who went to the third elementary school, told me that the first students were Jewish and her friends. So, there were young people, because I described to you in our first meeting that I saw mothers with their children in their arms with their children in their arms. This is amazing, I can't forget it, but I didn't see others, maybe because they left me to look out the window. The day was fine, while the others started in the middle of the night. Do you remember if you had Jewish teachers at school? No, but I remember the first scientist, because he was a great success in Trikava. At that time, it was impossible to understand the culture. How would you describe the relations between Jews and Christians? There were a lot of relations, but now, the business people may have a sorrow, because they had all the business in their hands, they were the most capable. A little jealousy develops, but I think that that's why the people accepted them in the villages. Everyone who was afraid had acquaintances in the villages, they accepted them in their homes, they fed them, whatever they had, the Christians, the Greeks, all Greeks, and the Greeks would be born. What can I tell you now? How did you understand this jealousy? I never understood it, but later, when I grew up and listened to the various discussions, I said to myself, at that time, no one had the wealth of the Jews, because they had the money and they had the commerce. Now, how much did the people earn? How much did they earn? The men were problematic. My children had the children's costume, there was no money. They had to be very rich, I don't know, to be public servants, who had a good salary. Greece had a lot of misfortunes, a lot. There was no money then. Had you heard from some that you were small, that you had to work in some way? No. Had you heard other rumors about the Jews? No. There was, I can tell you, a miracle for these people, because, what can I tell you now, another family, the family was not, it was three brothers, the brothers Cohen, they had a house and then they sold it, and they lived in the Jewish houses, that's how they were characterized, in the Jewish houses. It was, and the three of them were laughing, mythical people for us. They were locked up inside, no one knew what they were doing, others said they were writers, others said they were experts, they knew German very well, they gave lessons to children. What lessons? German language. Amazing, right? And yet, when the Germans entered, they turned around German learners to translate, and they took on their motorcycle the son of Tegopoulos, Tegopoulos was a biomechanist in Trikala, he had a factory, he made blankets, napkins, faces, and he had three sons, he and a daughter. The eldest son, had learned German, and the Tegopoulos family had bought the nice house of his sister, they had bought it, and he learned German from his sisters. Now, which of the three was the teacher? I don't know. And they took this child, they knew who to take, but, no, they didn't take Cohen, who knew German and Greek very well, but they took this child, who at that time was 20 years old, and they took the daughter of the mayor, the eldest, who was locked up in a school and had learned German. How did you know that they had learned German? How did you know? It was our neighborhood. The middle son of Tegopoulos, the eldest, the middle one, was a classmate of my middle brother. We called him in a row. So, they were classmates, and when Dimitris, who I told you about, came to Mimi and showed him how to solve an exercise, he didn't take the letters, and that's why he wasn't a teacher, but he told us the whole story, the elder goes there, but he didn't pass the art. These were the hearing and my own. That's why I know them that way. But the admiration for these three brothers was... a mystery was covered all their lives, but whatever they wanted, some coins, that's what I heard, that they could appreciate old coins, they knew everything, but they didn't have a family. And that's how they got lost. Did you know them? I didn't know them. They passed in front of the house to go to the square, they didn't go out often. No, they were the educated ones. They knew only that. Everyone was talking about them, about the knowledge, the elder, but I didn't understand what they were doing, or how... It was a great house, but it was closed, nothing, because there was no woman inside. How did they open it? How did they get there? With so much knowledge. That's what I remember, a miracle, because they had a mind more than us, knowledge, that was a given, there was no such thing. We have been told in many areas that there was a rumor that they told their children not to go to the neighborhood of the Jews on Easter. Have you heard this rumor? I have heard it many times, but... What have you heard? That they had something different, that they had hatred. Hatred, but I think it was a religious passion. Have you heard that they were saying not to go to the neighborhood of the Jews on Easter? No, I have not heard such things. So you don't remember any tension between you? No tension, no, not even... We were walking in the streets, I remember seeing who the Jews were. Do you have any other memory from the period before the war with the Jews, with your friends, something else that I did not ask you? I have not left anything. I have not. And I was a little jealous. What were you jealous of? Well, Gabi, for example, as soon as spring came, she came out with a new knitted jacket that her mother had knitted. At the time, the new one she was wearing. We, despite the fact that she was weeping, and her mother was weeping, since I was the one weeping, but we did not have this culture, for example, to be okay with the time, to have something new. This car next to it had a lot of chickens, we called them chickens, little girls, small, or the hair is called a mane, the tail is called a tail, is not it? I do not know if things have changed today. I was like that. So, we could, let's say, but I do not know why. I did not have it. My mother could have made it later, my mother might have been jealous and took a seam and made it, but the gauze was coming, I remember once a nice color that she was wearing. Mainly, it was, let's say, of evangelism, which was an affair that was student, it was better days, the weather had warmed up a little, let's say, with a blouse and a woolen jacket, it was knitted. Her father was an avid beggar, a beggar, that is. And my husband, supposedly, has this from his grandfather's grandfather. It was not that, supposedly, he says, because he was a beggar, I think, but they went down to the streets, settled there and had a Saraphic grandfather. Where will you go to Saraphic, where will you go to Saraphic? And it remained supposedly, when the signature of the population began, because until then it was the Turkic states, they did not write at all, there is an archive, let's say, for the families. How did the war find you now? We are going to the period of the war. What is your first memory of the war? How did you learn that the war was declared? Where were you? What do you remember? I remember very well that my mother and my middle brother had gone down to Athens to give exams for politics, because he became a political engineer after all. And they had gone down here to give exams. And in Trikala, my father, my older brother, who was already a law student, and Zaharoula was at home, the girl who was taking care of him, and my older brother took me for a walk on this sidewalk outside the house and he tells me Show us a little more, where did he take you for a walk? Here, here. Here, from the door of the courtyard, we went out to the corner and back again. It was a balcony and it described the declaration of war. They knew it from the night, of course, but they took me I didn't go to school, I had a holiday that I didn't go to school, and they told me that they declared war on us, the Italians, and now at that time, he was 19 years old, I don't remember now, and I didn't return, I was younger than the age that they took them to the army. The older ones, in the class, they took them all, because my brother had gone to school for three years and he was a teacher, the others finished then. They finished with him, but they were much older in age, and they went to the army. Many went to the army and many returned. That's how I learned it. Then it was how my mother came back from Athens to Trikala, to the village, to the house, because the trains moved the train to the border. It was all planned. How did my mother come back now? Shadows, fear... I remember a little, but it was tragic the fear of my mother coming back to the house with Minos. They came back, and the anxiety of being tied up for the soldiers. I remember our relatives would come to the house. What are you going to do? What am I going to tie? Helmets, rings... Everything was lost. How were the Italians when they came? They didn't suffer. They didn't suffer. The Italians were very different from the Germans. They didn't keep their distance. We had two rooms. The house was big. There were many rooms in all the big houses. There weren't many. We had one Italian. I don't remember that he had a daughter, Bianca. I remember it because they showed us pictures. His daughter was my age. I heard everything. I was jealous. But he was a very good man. Let me tell you a detail. We had a radio. A rare thing. When the Italians came in, they told all the radios to surrender. We didn't declare it. We didn't go to surrender it. We hid it. When we got in touch with the Italians, I speak Italian fluently. I don't go to school. I don't go to school. I call him Giorgia. Our soldiers used to shout at him. When they fought in Albania with the Italians, the slogan was Giorgia! And you shouted at him? We shouted at Giorgia. He was a very good man. One night, it was dark, it was 10.30 or 11. As he turned the radio, he heard Cairo, which said the news in Greek. It was amazing. It was the only station where we learned what was going on outside of Greece. And immediately the patrol appeared. At that time Giorgia appeared and went out to the balcony. We all disappeared because we were not the actors. And he says, did you hear that? I turned it. It was his own radio. And he saved us. Because it was a mess now. They saw that he was saying that it was their own. But it was just the beginning. I know that it was him. And when he said his name I turned and it was heard. Many people disappeared. And that's how we were saved that night. Were you all at home that night? All. It was the beginning. It was the beginning. It was 42, before 43, in the summer. That is, it was a time when we were under attack. I think you told us last time that it was also a friend of your brother that night? That night my brother had started he was at a very young age a law student. The law from then on was the prison where all the ideologies were developed and distributed. He was circumcised very early, without us knowing, of course. And at home he was hiding his leader, let's say, his friend, a professor here, who hated him for communism, Marx, Lenin and so on. All these things and he was hiding and he had hidden him in our house. But Yurios had not seen him, because as the house is here in front with this balcony, back in the yard was the entrance from the street and then there were five or six steps, a shelf with cushions and a terrace on top. That's where Giorgos Galanis was staying at night, that's what he was called, and Lakis was there. And he went to the TV, they caught Giorgos and his life was lost. But fortunately Yurios, the poor man, saved us all. It wasn't our fault that he came back, but who would blame him? They would blame us. So Giorgos, his friend, they were looking for him in Italy? They were looking for him, of course. Did your parents know that he was hiding in your house? They knew, they knew. My father was to blame for everything, he was a very democratic man, his children were free, he did everything, without restrictions. He had, I don't know what kind of mentality he had. He didn't adapt to me. The boys had the privilege to do whatever they liked, wherever we ended up. So your brother, if I understand correctly, was organized from the beginning of the war? Maybe it was before the war. Here, in the army, he would definitely have been organized. Do you remember, as far as Italy was concerned, I was told that it was relatively good. It was very quiet, very quiet. Until the people we knew, little children, that I would bring them a slice of bread in the afternoon, that I would take the caravan there. I mean, some things that we were going through very much. To have sympathy for these people, let's say. And against the Jews, were they like you? No, nothing, nothing, nothing. There was no separation. But that's why they were in the sleep, because they had no annoyance, that is, how to get over them. And when the Germans entered, where were they, what do you remember about the Germans' entry into the city afterwards? The Germans occupied Greece. They were Germans. But they handed it over, I don't know what was going on in Athens, but in the headquarters there was only Italy. So we lived like this until the fall of the summer, that is, the end of the summer, when Italy surrendered. When did Italy surrender? Until then, life was difficult, but not unexpectedly. Our lives were not in danger. There was no terrible event, let's say, robberies, things, nothing at all. As soon as the Germans came, first of all, the group of young people started to build the roads in Germany. In the mining works, for example. The youth began to hide, they went out to the mountains, very large villages, you can say. The Jews then began to leave the villages, because they were a little scared. But the Germans left them to sleep. The whole 43 passed, the whole 43 passed, they entered the 44 and they prayed the waiting of the evangelism. On March 24, the 44th, it took place, at least in Trikala. Until then, the Jews learned that all of Europe had been blamed for the ovens, of course, this news had not reached them, it was terrible. But that they were executed, that they were left hungry, that they worked from morning to night, such rumors. In general, that they were collected, they were exterminated. This is how many families came out to the villages, if not all, however, the three quarters left. I remember from the girls at school, when they left, they abandoned everything, let's say. To understand, when they abandoned, when the Germans came, they took the documents, let's say, the Germans. They immediately began to worry. Immediately, immediately. From the news they received? Yes. And how did they receive these news? From where? And let me tell you, we all learned it. From the radio, the illegal ones. Then it was very close, the Antartes. The Elasites, their offices of the Communist Party, they had a very large organization. This is how they learned. Sometimes they questioned and went back to the city. And that eventually ate them. Otherwise, the three quarters had the opportunity to escape all, all, all. Did you leave at some point from the city? No, not at all. Not at all. Only one week, maybe less, when the Germans bombed the Trikala. When was that? I don't know. I don't remember. And where did they bomb? You told me earlier about the Synagogue. This was the first bombing. It ended immediately. It must have been during Easter. That's how it was. That's when they entered the Trikala. I can't remember. It doesn't matter. It must have been. So you left at that time. Yes. All the relatives were gathering where they had a nearby shelter. And we, together with my brothers and sisters, the first night we moved to a village called Bursi. I don't know what it's called today. And from there, with a cart, with our feet, we climbed a thousand steps up the mountain. And we took a road that was very steep because first they entered the village outside the area, and then they entered the Trikala. Let me ask you something that I didn't understand. What you told me about the bombing in the Synagogue, when did that happen? Back then. Can you tell us what happened? In the new Synagogue there was a shelter and the Orthodox were going. The only difference was the religion. There was no other difference. Well, 17 people were killed there because they were very safe, for example. For the information there, maybe they knew about shelters that were being made in other countries that knew that there were bombs. We didn't know anything. It was very new and it fell just above and 17 people were killed. One family was killed, it was called Papathanasios. And there my best friend was killed. Which one? No, it wasn't inside. It wasn't yours because the Jews had taken them. The Synagogue was closed. The shelter was open for everyone. It wasn't Greek. It wasn't Greek. What can I do? The loss was for me... We were classmates with her. Maybe she was the first after the Jewish girls I had. Because in school, what I knew, they were close, but not as close as the girls. So you left for a week Yes, all three of us left. They were hungry. Then they entered the shelter and opened the shops, they did it. No, they weren't afraid. They loaded the goods in the carts. They did whatever they wanted. The Germans hadn't come. But they were coming from above. They were coming down. We understood. We returned. We were afraid that our homes would be flooded. Maybe after the shops, they would be hungry. We were going down slowly. And there we met the Germans to enter the shelter in this village first. With motorcycles, with cars. Where did they enter first? In the heart? I remember that when they entered we were inside the house and we were looking at them from these windows, we caught them with the mantle and we were watching them. They took off their tricolors with their motorcycles and their weapons and I remember these very well. What can I do? How did life change with the Germans in the tricolors? Very much. It was peaceful. There were no people around. There was no life. Until they handed over to the Italians, it was a dead end. Were the Italians still in your house? They weren't then. When the Italians entered, it was a miracle. Do you remember that time? We were hungry. As I told you, my brothers put me on the roof. The wall of this house was about 60-70 meters high. From inside, these windows of the basement, with the curtains outside, they had a very large sink and they put me on top of it when the sugar came with the pan and the candy to eat for a week. From little by little. I was hungry, not joking. Then they sent me to my mother's aunt, my grandmother's sister, who had a farm in Larissa, in a village, to plant bread. Oh my God! Did you see the Germans being raped? No, only that day with the Jews. We didn't see them. They didn't go out. They had the strength to be terrified. I remember it like that. Tell us about the resistance in Trikala, around the village. It was very big. That's how my two brothers were killed. What did your brother do in the resistance? No, he wasn't a soldier. He didn't know about weapons. He was a commander. They sent him from the village that was outside. They sent him to the vol. They sent unknown people to live in the illegal and to organize the city. The second one was even younger, but he was kept by the Communist Party as a secretary, a secretary. I don't say secretary because it has a different extension. It was a secretary. That's where he was kept. Because he was inside. The school had finished, but the academy was closed. The university didn't work. When did your older brother leave the house? He left the house before the Germans came? No, he lived in the Italian occupation. During the Italian occupation? Yes. His friend Giorgos Galanis left. He went to Kadidza and Lakis went to a village where the youth was organized. It was in Pon. They gave him a friend and he went to the vol. Do you remember that you said that there was a polygraph in your house? How did he end up in your house? I don't know how he ended up in my house. He went out every day to announce it. He gave it to me and I gave it to him. Who knew how dangerous it was to be caught with the bag. Did your parents know about the polygraph? Of course. They didn't see who did the distribution. I was a person and not only that but I also met a classmate of mine who was the father of the principal of the school. He had a big beard and a big beard. He gave it to me and I remember we were passing in front of the market and there was a salesman who left it on a shelf. The shelves were in front of the shops and if you have seen it there are coins inside. This is the shelf. They had this little table outside the doors of the shops with furniture and things like that. Glassware I don't know if they still exist. No, they don't. They are big companies. They have the big what was it called? I don't know. They had this but it was noon when we went for a walk because the school we had was in the morning and at noon after lunch we went for a walk and I left them on the shelf which was closed and he gave it to me I don't know how it happened. What did he say? He announced it maybe he will let me read it but in any case it was that they were listening to the news on the radio and they wrote it in the diary or the news that came from the villages because they entered the city with wood to sell and this life continued it was the same. They made the mandates from the outside what was going on they kept everything everything. Did the Germans kidnap the leftists the guerrillas? No. In the city they didn't start only in the last quarter from here from Athens locals they had mobilized people who came to their side they knew who the leftists were they were not leftists they were communists communists who were organized who made sabotage and they had started and they were arrested others were executed others were taken to Germany Have you ever seen an execution? Have you ever been in an execution? Yes. On Easter day they hanged six people on the side Do you want to describe what you saw? It is very tragic Do you want to tell me? What can I tell you? It was Easter everyone went out to the square It was six to seven that they went out for a walk In Trikala there is still a street it is the square and after the bridge starts the road of Sklipiou which ends at the railway station and that is where the Nifopazar was where we had everything related people went out for a walk and it was Easter we could not celebrate it but we were not forbidden to celebrate in every house and that day there were raids in the surrounding villages and they had arrested six boys and suddenly the cars stopped they put down their tents and they were hanged and I was playing in the square in a corner over there people started to disappear and the world went crazy because they were old they were not children they understood what was going on they gathered us and we were locked in our houses Do you know why they were hanged? For what? For revolutionary activity against the Germans Do you remember if there were signs of a war? No, not at all and they were left there hanged Of course the parents were standing they were crying they were beating them and gathering them I was not present it was impossible to stand there Did you know any of them? Yes, one of them was 17 years old Did you know him? Yes, I knew him since he was a child since he went to school he had an attack for sure but out of fear all these events were to frighten people and keep them in fear not to be active in this field Do you know if there were Jews among them? No, not a single one Back then they were very closed they did not open at all Jews who were in resistance did you know any cases of Jews who were in resistance? Do you know any names? No, I do not remember Your brother? Negrin was one of the children he was with my brother I do not remember Yusoulas I do not remember Where did he go? Lyakos as well I told you he was with his sister, Allegra They were at the mountain they were at the mountain they never came back and that is how they survived then they went to Israel after that liberation Do you remember that you told us that Lyakos was hidden by your brother? Tell me about it We hid him there When? I do not remember exactly it was before the Jews were gathered before they were gathered illegally had come to the city he was outside illegally had come I do not know why and of course he did not go home to sleep and he slept with us we ate together yes, fortunately he lived Did they torture him for his communist action? Of course if he had developed but everyone knew it what kind of people were there then Tell me about the role of Greek collaborators who helped the Germans were there any? Who helped them? Of course Makris, Mandzoukas, Trikalas they came back with a German uniform in the end so many of them with a baton in their hands and what did they do? How did they help the Germans? They had only a car with a German driver they were inside and they had arrested some who betrayed the organization and the people and they were taken to Trikalas and whoever they saw who had collaborators who knew that he was a communist or that he was organized or that he was helping or that he was part of a family that was helping they were shown and arrested Did you see that? Of course and I remember that one of the traitors as it was our character one of them was Sofantzis we used to call him Sofantzis where were the houses? He was organized and he was a refugee in the camp he betrayed he gave names he arrested those who betrayed but then they took him to Orpheon jeep I remember Orpheon and he went around all of Trikalas to see no one and to show him he showed a lot and I remember my father came home and told me to be careful if you see I have forgotten the name of the attacker If you see the jeep with him in front of you, you will disappear don't let him see you, because he will burn us I knew it Do you understand now? Is he the one you were talking about? No, Makris was a partner of the Germans meaning a volunteer he wasn't a prisoner who betrayed Yes, I understand There is a difference Makris was the leader and Makris betrayed They burned all the boys who were protecting them What happened after that? Makris was in prison because they took their families and they went to Larissa together with a German convoy they went to Larissa to take the train to go to Germany and there they were sent to a village and Makris was killed Manzoukas stayed until the end to take the Germans to Albania and he disappeared no one knew we learned that the Germans executed them on the road so they wouldn't have them with them what happened to them? The purpose was no one was interested to have them and to feed them and to take their positions because they didn't even have a car they were leaving by boat small cars where would the officers go? the city was with a boat and it was very white that's what they told them that they had sent the Germans and they were brought as a convoy because no one could communicate with them they didn't speak German they spoke their language Let me ask you when the Germans captured the city did they show any different behavior towards the Jews? were there any measures? No they didn't seem like they were all the same in the city I remember that very well because whatever happened we were the first ones we didn't understand that night they didn't do anything they were a convoy nothing so when did you see the Jews worried? immediately when the Germans came it was obvious they didn't just enter Greece but they were taking over the whole country while the Italians were taking over they were taking over immediately they stopped coming from the schools they were leaving the Germans were very worried about the state because the Germans had already been exterminated from the families you knew and you were friends who left? everyone left did they tell you that they were leaving? I'm not telling you now but they were laughing during the German occupation after the Italian occupation they were laughing how? because they didn't bother they didn't bother why did they find them all in their sleep? why did they take them all? they could be on the mountain and hide they didn't show any sign some of the Jews came in exchange with the Germans how do you know that? where do you know that from? hearsay I don't know there were hearsays and the German Seppel I think I told you about him he was in Volos he saved all the Jews he had come as a mechanic to a factory where the Germans had taken over I don't know he had been in contact with the locals and he kidnapped them he gave them orders to disappear and so they escaped in Volos with no one I don't know what information you have if there were any families that were still inside if they didn't know and remained ignorant but most of the Jews left they left in Trikala you told me that all your friends left but they came back did they all come back? not all those who didn't come back like the Campbellis family they all came back there are other families but I don't know what to tell you they came back so those who came back why did they come back? what did they tell you? we don't threaten that they didn't threaten yes because they had heard something? they had cleared up because in no city nothing had happened they hadn't gathered them in Greece it was the last time they gathered had they learned what had happened what had happened in Volos? immediately they learned immediately they learned what can you say it was a fact and this Sefer didn't leave with the Germans he stayed and no one bothered him and in the mountains where they stayed where they went for the funeral in the houses of the villagers all of them all of them you told me before that Markos Oganis had left some things to you and you had told us a story about it he had written he had told my father don't have a photo that shows that you are Jews it would have been better if you gave it to me if it is, give it to me so I can keep it for someone else he said no don't have anything annoying he said we have clothes and some things of the family that are valuable the father said ok and then when we opened it what can we see all in the bag Markos Oganis that's why he stayed we were shocked because it was her who came to negotiate with Markos' wife they had a connection it was normal and these poor people wanted to save their things and they wrote but we were shocked the Germans they had a girl with short procedures and the girl came back from the mountains not from the mountains after the liberation I told you that the whole family took her because they had gone down they came back they took them all and only the girl was saved what do you want to do a short break I didn't get tired nothing bothered me if you want to do it if you are ok you if you want you talk more about that if you want to drink some water to get up nothing I haven't done that only the girl came back from the mountains from the mountains there was no mountain to take the girl we saw them leave to take them my father saw everything because he woke up and turned on the stove to warm up the whole family and it happened immediately but he was scared he didn't do anything you want to go to that day the day that they were gathered tell me when you wake up what do you remember I remember when my father came and turned on the stove and then he heard noises some Jew was shouting even I didn't I didn't realize and I saw him going to the window it was the Persians as it seemed he saw all that he woke up my mother he hid my brother in a closet my middle brother was still running then he left after they took the Germans the Germans took the Jews he hid him and woke me up I had already woken up but he told me the Jews are coming up he told me they are coming into our house but I didn't hear when they went to the corner window from here everything was closer the optical corner was bigger I woke up and I looked out from that window then I was brave I saw all the Chinese the big ones the small ones you went to the other side I went to the other side why should they hide me I was sitting here were moments that never happened again so they went and after all of this was over that is the approach of all who had fallen asleep the sun came out I mean it would be 7 o'clock with the last events then the two the two the two and they were shot slowly then they came and knocked on the door and my father went down he spoke to them in German he said can we come up to rest a little they saw the smoke from the jacket for sure let me tell you to get them one by one you wake up and you go to the window what do you see at that moment the Jews they were shot it was a car very dark to tell you in the back trucks as it is covered with steps wooden steps I saw them from above three four maybe up to the floor and the people to block them to get in that's what I saw the tragic thing was the last thing I told you with my mother do you want to tell me again? let me tell you there were two on the right and left Germans and my mother she had stabbed her child inside if she could and they were pushing her they were pushing her they were pushing her up the stairs she didn't go up she just stabbed her child more and at some point they pulled her from her hands I don't remember exactly how it happened I remember they grabbed her and they threw her inside my mother I think she tried she shouted what did she do and she went into the car that was really bad did you see Germans entering the houses to get people out? they didn't they were forbidden they were forbidden but I didn't see them I saw them from there I saw them and then they closed the shops there were no houses I didn't see them it was on that side that you could see what was going on but we couldn't we didn't have so you saw them Yes, Kondylia was a double road uphill and downhill in the middle there were hills with islands and hills on top the road one of them left Kondylia and the other one entered we were on the right there was one car here and a second one on the opposite side did you understand? there was no traffic everything was forbidden after 8 the traffic started there were two cars it seems that they were loading and leaving and coming back because you can't have a whole house in two cars did you see them leaving and coming back? my father saw them, I didn't he saw the other car this one changed lanes and came back and they were going to the warehouses to the houses that they wanted and they were using them downstairs there were warehouses all those houses did you see people inside did you see the others inside? how can we see? the house was black black, not black completely black no windows nothing you didn't see what was going on inside how many are packed nothing were there many Germans that came that you saw? that day, of course were there Greek co-workers? no, none none I don't believe in Germans none and how did the Germans know where the houses were? I tell you from my point of view no one has broken the door but they should know the border and not come to us to break the door they didn't even suspect that we are hiding until this point they should have daily surveillance not only before the occupation I tell you the first ones to break the doors what did they do? why? this should have affected all of them they shouldn't stay in the city right? right? isn't it? you told me about the woman with the baby did you see other elderly people, children all of them with difficulties all of them I didn't see the children I tell you they could have gone in but I didn't see them they could have caught them earlier and they would have already escaped what did they say? did they shout? no, not at all not at all not at all since they had their weapons what could they do? what could they say? they would have lost their voice maybe they didn't know what to expect do you remember keeping things with them having bags something bags bags? yes, but not many things one or two I remember now that you mentioned them I didn't notice yes, bags and they were all covered, it was night when they were taken they were with their shoes with blankets blankets? I don't know it was night they were brought to sleep as they were found they were collected and the blankets were taken when you woke up what time was it? it was still dark it was dark with the light from the street lights and then it was morning did you recognize faces? first of all I didn't see faces I saw backs I didn't see faces how can I tell you here is the window the car has this load they were put inside they were taken from the street what could I see? I told you, blankets blankets had blankets but all with backs so you didn't recognize any of them I didn't recognize anything the next day we learned I think that day I didn't leave them until noon I don't remember now the next day we learned that no one was left that they were taken how did they disappear? where did they go? from where did they go? as if the street was there you told us last time that you recognized the family or someone from the Mordechai family I recognized that you saw someone no no that we were connected with the family, yes but to recognize I didn't recognize but you were looking at that moment to see your friends no there was no God like that the fear was that they would come to us and take us they thought we were Jews but they they had so you told me about the two Germans that entered your house that was amazing until my father realized what they wanted and I heard him later he told me they entered and told me to come upstairs to get warm they didn't tell us to smoke but as soon as they came they took out their cigarettes and lit them from the stove you understand they didn't have a match I don't know they lit them from the stove they smoked they didn't say anything they didn't say their purpose or why they came my father said different things I think I asked them about their age they didn't say anything or their purpose or if we have a Jew but it wasn't legal they were illegal in our house they didn't have an order to enter a Christian house and nothing else what I remember is that he impressed them that he spoke to them in German maybe they were a little scared he said if someone asks us don't tell us anything but as soon as they saw that my father didn't care they were surprised what can he do my brother was in the closet what can they take from me were you in the front? I was in the front they did everything in the car we were with my mother me and my mother the rest we were calm because my father came and told us stand in front to show that we are not afraid because we are not Jews this was the main purpose but they knew better than us what we were there was no this betrayal this destruction who gave them the maps but you know there was no road where we played in the zoo was there a road? how did they give them everything? these traitors they should have taken photos they should have given everything because there was no evidence that on the road from the number Tade to Tade there was nothing no records nothing nothing how did they keep them? how long did you see from the window? about an hour an hour after he left did you see until the last truck left? yes the Germans left these two boys from the house I don't remember why they left and then we saw that from the rest of the family the Germans returned then I saw and I tell you that there were many Germans and the car went it left with a slow pace and they all around with their weapons in front of them they left they had finished their mission and the road was deserted? the road was deserted it was deserted what did you do after the last truck left? you were at home with your parents what did they tell you? rise up they took the Jews I can't believe it and how there was no way for the rest of the city to know about it because we were the only witnesses did you understand? everything was closed they took them at night they should have started at 4 o'clock the whole community this group of Jews it was completely sudden? completely they were all asleep because it was the same what can we say the rest of us do you know if there was any case that a Jew managed to hide in a Christian house? no no in the city that day no one was hiding no one what were you talking about? the next day with the neighbors crazy there is no mercy what happened then in the houses of the Jews that they left what happened? I could never understand when it happened the closing of their houses who was responsible for this case but then the Germans burned the villages the next move was that they started burning the houses and they put the firemen they took them from the village and they were forced to move from the village of Kalabaka which is big it was a town they put them in the houses of the Jews so the Jews came to the villages next to you? yes they came from the village of Kalabaka mainly because the transport came with the Kalabaka with the family and stayed in the houses of the Jews the ones that were saved and when the liberation came and they returned the ones that were outside they found musafireos in their houses and what to do with them now? what to do with them? how to get rid of them? slowly in one room and the others that had suffered or lost their people because there were families that were separated some went down and some stayed in the villages before they gave the houses to the Germans were there people inside? there were people inside but usually girls came but the local administration let's say the municipality they took care of the houses and they closed them but then it seems that the houses of the Jews were torn down and they will put a fence and suddenly we found new neighbors you saw before the days after they took the Jews did you see people going inside the houses taking things? first of all these things were happening at night not during the day they said a lot because later families were found let's say to have gold to have things like that they said they went inside the Jews and they had everything left behind and they have this money and they live and there were such rumors do you know which families were mentioned? do you know their names? I know a family let's say that said they found a lot of rings and rings things like that that they didn't have before they didn't go around and they were from a secretive family of secretive lawyers I don't know they had an exchange with the Jews I mean more friendship maybe they had left all their things I don't know they were found they were from my acquaintances their shops? what happened? all that did others take them? no later those who came back those who didn't were in the villages and they came back they took them all they took them remind me from those who went to the mountains from your own people who you know who were those who came back after the liberation? Moses Levi not Luisa they were called Luisa and Levi but there were other families with the same name Levi had the shop under the town hall he came back and opened it I remember that Moses is still here in Athens he is the grandson of Moses he is a political engineer here the girls got married one of the girls from Ioannina was saved and they kept the shop Solomon did they come back? they didn't they didn't they didn't go to Germany they were out on the mountain and came back Luisa? Luisa got married and didn't come back did you tell me about Gabi and Mireille? Gabi didn't come back she didn't come back neither Gabi nor Mireille mother, father they had a brother who had something in his stomach and they went to Paris for surgery and he didn't live I don't know and the two girls stayed in the family did you tell me about the Coen brothers? they took them nothing remained of them nothing those who came back from the mountains did they stay? they stayed those who came back from Germany almost all of them left one of their sons is dead he is in America I don't know if he is still alive but he grew up he went to school he came twice to Greece and they got married they are lost they were very dear to the family where can you go? I don't know is there anything else you want to add? something I didn't ask you anything I don't remember I don't remember now in the last few days I remembered that in Trikala I have a friend who is a writer who has taken all the archives of the newspapers and Eli told me that we are going to Trikala and I thought of calling her but today Eli says you are not going to Trikala no do you want to ask her if she has any photos we will see we will talk about it no you can go to your office if you want I will call you and we will go to Trikala next week ok thank you very much can you give me 2 minutes to talk to my co-workers if they have any questions ok go inside we have 2 or 3 more questions we took a short break to consult with my co-workers I wanted to ask you if you remember the period before the war do you remember the marriages of the Jews yes there was a marriage of course the Jews did not talk again the girl fell in love with a Christian his profession maybe he was a lawyer I don't know he was in love with the history of the city but the girl was rejected by her family and she did not fit in with the Christian society and unfortunately she lost her husband very soon she did not have children he died he never came back he stayed with the Christians he had a great love of course it was something unprecedented and difficult I don't know people believed did you know this girl? let me tell you the rest of the story I told you that my father now does anyone have any interest in this? let me tell you they took us to the security checkpoints we did not go to prison we were temporary guards until we passed the committee to see how we would be handled this security checkpoints were in a house similar to mine very big upstairs were the offices and downstairs were the guards who were permanent they were not like us who were kept all day the others were one day they were passing by the court for political reasons it was us they kept us there we passed the committee I was released but my father stayed there until the case from the second level of the committee was over and after complaints mainly from the court the president came and told them come outside to the yard of the house this yard coincided with the house of the Jew who had married the Christian and had remained in this house my father owes his life to her because we moved a bed a wooden bed a bed and covers and he was sleeping there he did not enter the court again I told you that he was not going to run away although the security was closed around he knocked on the door from where he was a great man one day after he had caught a cold it rained the sky opened and he became a priest he had no life he was sitting there and it was raining who cares the purpose was outside the security was closed nothing except all the days my father gave him food from the fence that day he gave him an umbrella he gave him clothes and blankets and he sat like that until the rain stopped he woke up and went inside I want to tell you that the poor father held him because my mother did not go because she was afraid that they would arrest her he was fine but he was a great man I went but how can I stay and I left again he went to eat sometimes he even made coffee and drank Do you remember that? There were no relationships love relationships? No In your area did you know Ravino? How? How did they call him? Ravino? Yes, I remember Is there something that has remained with him? No Everyone greeted him we all greeted him even the children that we see him more in the synagogue nothing else he was close he followed a different person every day Do you know what happened to Ravino? Did he go to the mountains? No, no he must be arrested I don't know On the days of the occupation you told me that you were very hungry Yes How did you find food? How did you get food? Nothing, what food? Those who could not control very much the Italians and the Germans it was that certain houses on the outskirts of the city had sheep and they milked them and they had milk in the morning milk and they with the milk they sold certain shops today today they do not sell yogurt at that time we had our own sausages we went one day we took them the next morning and we went empty we had two in the house Pantopolis was selling yogurt and he was selling it this could not be controlled perhaps then from the sheep they had come out and we had cut them all we did not have because it was June when it happens and the Germans had already come the lamb had remained but it happens in August that saved us that winter and we did not die of hunger well, I did not die now I tell you how many thousands but in the Trikala in the other provinces the Thessaly was like the Volon of Greece that's how we learned in geography all the fields now they become cotton they become various crops then, however, only the hay came out there was a lot of hay a little the villagers were hiding and they sold it, a black market a very black market so you were buying we were buying a little, yes but we ate a little more I remember that very well only that we had nothing else so there was also a black market a black market, yes but all the gold had been transferred because the Athenians were selling them from the big cities where there was no impoverished country to feed the city and they forced and they returned the villages with the gold, they sold them in order to get a little to make a living to live it was a tragic situation this winter 1942 was not worse not worse the Germans had taken everything then Zea left for Stari what is without gluten you have learned it the Germans took everything and they forbade it to be cultivated let me ask you something more about the execution that you saw in the square yes, the hanging do you remember when was that? I remember very well on April 44 Easter on 44 you also told us there were white Russians in my brother's house there were white Russians they had built two rooms in his house there were white Russians with a German uniform how did you know that they were white Russians? because they could not speak German you learn it because it was not Ali Adaïs he was a German scholar as I told you they were people and then with time slowly they had come and the management of the Germans was harsh when they left they left the carts to leave the Germans took the cars because they were destroyed they had lost the few Germans who were German they took the cars and left and left the carts with the horses so you saw them in your area constantly in the city of course I can tell you that from them there were also looting thefts there were many that is why it was characteristic that they were not German the Germans did not accept the white Russians I remember them I remember them figures it seemed that they were not German another story how to do they had nothing but they were all in German uniforms all Mrs. Mina, thank you very much these were the complementary questions thank you very much again please and me too thank you |